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Help with high elves


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#1 Lord Kalumdi

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 12:31 AM

This is my first go at a 2500 point 8th edition high elf list. I basically just picked some combos I felt would be good based off my past games against them.

Just wondering what everyone thought and any suggestions for changes. I don't own too many more models past this so constructive criticism on this list would be better than trying to revamp it completely. I can change up most things though so please help! Thank you everyone in advance.

Archmage- level 4, golden crown, lore of heavens
Mage- level 1, barded steed, khaine's ring, lore of metal
Noble- BSB, barded steed, reaver bow, enchanted shield, potion of strength
5 silver helms- shields, musician
5 silver helms - shields, musician
5 reavers- bows, musician
5 reavers- bows, musician
6 dragon princes- musician
20 spearmen- full command, flaming banner
20 Phoenix guard- full command, razor standard
23 white lions - full command, banner of the world dragon
Repeater bolt thrower- 2 crew
Repeater bolt thrower- 2 crew
Repeater bolt thrower- 2 crew
Repeater bolt thrower- 2 crew
Great eagle
Great eagle

Archmage goes with white lions and spams spells from the back. Mage and noble take up with the silver helms and provide some close fire support. My plan is to control the table through eagles, reavers, comet and high threat units. Hopefully I can maneuver my way into a position where my hard hitters can combo charge and finish it.

#2 Kaptun Krum

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 07:22 AM

I think that you should get a frostheart in there just as a good solid support option for your HtH units. just question on why not some of the choice magic items like book of hoeth?

#3 Necronbob

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 09:34 AM

I think it's a pretty solid list.  I'll make a few suggestions.  Take them or leave them as I don't think any of them will make that big of a deal. 

 

Archmage- level 4, golden crown, lore of heavens -- Solid here.  Book of Hoeth would make a big difference in both magic offense and magic defense if you can find the points.
Mage- level 1, barded steed, khaine's ring, lore of metal I've had nice luck with this guy.  I don't think you will have enough dice to use the ring (unless you are planning for when your AM dies).  A scroll might work better (or keep him cheap and use these points for the book)
Noble- BSB, barded steed, reaver bow, enchanted shield, potion of strength I love the reaver bow combo, but remember, if you march, you can't shoot.  Cavalry units like to march, and they end up in combat a lot.  You might want to think about how you plan to use this guy.  If he's going to be running around the board, star lance might be better.  If you want him to camp out, the reaver bow will be awesome.
5 silver helms- shields, musician
5 silver helms - shields, musician
5 reavers- bows, musician Musicians are kind of meh on fast cav.  They do help with rally, but make your redirectors more expensive.  If you are playing in a tournament with fortitude, banners on your silver helms probably work better.  Also, if you can swing it, a cool trick with reavers is to take a unit of 6 with a champ.  You can run them into daemon princes and greater daemons and such and use the champ to challenge.  The enemy will smash the champ, but since you have 6, you will still be steadfast, so one ld. check allows you to pin your opponent's big character for two combat phases.  That can be a nice use of 90 points.
5 reavers- bows, musician
6 dragon princes- musician You might consider adding a champ for the reasons listed above since you are already at 6 models.  Also, consider a banner.  It really helps if they get stuck into combat against something like a K'dai.
20 spearmen- full command, flaming banner You could bunker your BSB here if he was on foot.  That'd give him flaming shots to take out hellpits and such.  You could put him in a different unit against enemies that have fire resistance.
20 Phoenix guard- full command, razor standard
23 white lions - full command, banner of the world dragon
Repeater bolt thrower- 2 crew
Repeater bolt thrower- 2 crew
Repeater bolt thrower- 2 crew
Repeater bolt thrower- 2 crew
Great eagle
Great eagle With two units of reavers, I typically find that I can get by with one eagle, so if you need to find some points, this might be your spot.  That said, eagles are still awesome.

 

I hope this helps.  I think it's a solid list, so you are fine without making any changes.  Maybe if you are lucky, Ghost Warrior will come by and offer some hints as well.  He's really good at list building.


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#4 Arydis

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 10:22 AM

I would add to NecronBob my thoughts.  His experience is more extensive, but for what it's worth - 

 

I've had some luck with Reavers with a banner.  Because of their fast cav rules, they are able to help you hold fortitude points by staying out of combat, and the extra point in combat res makes it easier to make flank and rear charges and win combat against small units without steadfast.  

 

The Book of Hoeth helps me more as a defensive item for dispels and is well worth it's points.  I love it against bound spells that my opponent is one dicing like the empire's prayers.



#5 GhostWarrior

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 11:55 AM

From my perspective, there's a lot of 'if you do this, then you should do that' choices in relation to your list.  In an effort to improve it's efficiency, I'll offer suggestions where I can.  My perspective here is to come at it from a tournament, all-comers style, in a non-comped environment, looking as objectively as possible at the current meta.  Here goes:

 

The current tournament environment consists largely of the following armies:  WoC, DoC, HE's, and DE's.  Dwarfs look to be an up and comer, but it's still a bit too early to say.  Empire are a strong and balanced army, but people (en mass) tend to shy away from that army (models? boring b/c they're 'human'? don't know why).  You still see Ogres, but they tend not to do well against the top 4 listed there.  When building a list, you have to think about how your list handles the top 4-6 armies, while also trying to have some coverage for less seen builds.  More specific to your list:

 

1)  While boring, the most useful lore for High Elves is still Shadow.  Though I can definitely see High as a close 2nd.  For either of those lores, the Book of Hoeth is amazing for your Lvl 4. 

If you go Shadow, stick to the following configuration:

Book, Talisman of Preservation

If you go High, use the following:

Book, Talisman of Endurance, Ironcurse Icon

 

Shadow magic makes every unit in your army better.  Really, why wouldn't anyone want that ability?  I've gone around the bend, using all 8 different lores with my HE's (old book and new), and there really is just no substitution for the fear this lore puts in ANY opponent.  The only reason not to take it is you want the flavor of another lore (perfectly acceptable), or you want to avoid a comp hit (it generally gets hit hard in environments that look that specifically at choices).  If you take this lore, put the AM in the Spear unit.

 

High Magic is close, but it can be hard for your units to decisively and quickly win combats.  However, the fact that every spell cast gives your unit +1 ward, makes it a very good lore, especially in combination with the Book.  If you take this lore, put the AM in the WL's.

 

2)  I think you can keep your Lvl1, but you need to give him a Dispel Scroll.  This may come off sounding pretty crass, but the only reason any army (not just HE's) should not have a Dispel Scroll, is if they've used up their Arcane slots with better items (of which there are very few, Book of Hoeth is one - unless Swede comp is involved!).  He can also keep the Ring, but it is less necessary if you choose High Magic on your AM.  This guy should probably be on foot, but I'm thinking he's mounted partly because that's the kit you have?  If so, keep it, but be ready to jump him out of units often.

 

In the Shadow build, he gives you important spells to cast turn 1 (other than Withering).

 

In the High build, he gives you a damage spell that isn't provided by the High Lore.

 

3)  A mounted BSB needs to be kitted for combat.  You want the threat range provided by him + Silverhelms to be serious, and the Reaver Bow doesn't cut it.  I think the Reaver Bow is actually a poor item, unless it goes on the Handmaiden.  The typical Noble, Lord suffers a -2 to -3 penalty minimum when using this bow (Multi-shot Move/Range, or all 3), meaning he hits on 3's or 4's.  Totally not worth it when you want to make sure your BSB is in as advantageous a position as possible (for re-rolls). 2 other possible builds for him:

 

Mounted, Barded, Dragon Armour, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Other Trickster's Shard, Lance

Mounted, Barded, Dragon Armour, Enchanted Shield, Golden Crown, Potion of Foolhardiness, Star Lance

 

I would recommend the first option in a Shadow build, and the second in a High Build.  Typically, having a 1+ armour save is a very good ability, 1+ re-rollable even more so.  I am currently a huge fan of the Other Trickster's Shard, and think it needs to find a way in every list for every army (like a Dispel Scroll).  Heavy ward saves are becoming prevalent, and all of the Top 4 have them in very key places.  Anything that reduces the success rate of an unmodifiable save, is a big deal in my book.  In the High build, the value of a no armour save Lance just barely outstrips the value of the OTS.

 

3)  I would personally think the Silver Helms should be 1 unit of 7-9, that you would tend to deploy 3-wide to help minimize footprint.  The BSB should go in here, and the unit should have full command.  If 3 wide, the BSB hangs in the 2nd rank, and can make way during a fight to an appropriate spot, where his OTS can help him (and his unit) do the most damage.

 

4)  Reavers - this is another unit whose value depends on the rest of your army.  There are 2 main options for their build.  Cheap and expendable, or moderately priced with more options but less expandability.  I tend to prefer the second option, but I think both are viable, and are directly tied to your need for Eagles.

 

On the cheap option, drop the bows, and just go spear and muso.  In this way the unit is expendable, can bait and flee, but generally will not.  If you go this route, I'd say you only need 1 eagle.

On the moderate option, up the unit to 6 models, go bow and spear, and give the unit a banner and a musician.  This unit absolutely crushes WoC chaff AND their fast cav.  In a Shadow build, this unit can also be very threatening in combination with Mindrazor in a flank.  In what will be the last HE build I'll take for a while, I took 2 units with this setup, and did not regret it AT ALL.  If anything, I was wishing in some games that I had also given the units Champions.  I'll leave that part of the decision up to you.

 

Both builds can be used in either magical setup, but the first is probably better with High, and the 2nd better with Shadow.

 

5) Dragon Princes.  I love 'em.  I'd say give them a Banner and a Champ (banner 1st).  In the Shadow build, give them the Banner of Eternal Flame (will show you why next) and in the High build, give them the Gleaming Pennant.

 

6)  Spearmen.  A perfectly useable unit.  With Shadow, consider making them Seaguard OR giving them the Standard of Discipline, as having LD10 is really useful.  With the high build, you can keep them as is, though you may find they have trouble finding a good place without more bodies (35ish is really nice).  In the Shadow, Std of D build, you can trim this unit to as little as 15 and still be fine (since it has no intention of fighting).

 

7) Phoenix guard.  Amazing unit, no changes needed, unless you want to make them bigger.  They are better then WL's in all comers, as the 3rd rank and re-rolls are huge.

 

8)  WL's.  Perfectly fine unit.  Will work better in the High build, but still have a place in the Shadow build.  If you go High, you could also make this a unit of Swordmasters, for more damage - but that's up to you.

 

9) RBT's and Eagles.  Nothing to say here, both are awesome.  If needing the points, you can drop 1 eagle if you went the cheap route with the Reavers.

 

 

That's the skinny.  I didn't add/tweak points for you, since they weren't listed. :)

 

Obviously, if you're not building for all comers, and your local meta/opponents are of different armies, then these suggestions will lose some value.  In general, the DE's armies are causing us a lot of trouble right now, and there's not too much we have to handle the Warlocks and Witchstar.  Otherwise, it matches well against WoC, DoC and in the mirror match.

 

Hope that was helpful.



#6 Necronbob

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 12:07 PM

Like I said, maybe Ghost Warrior will come by. 

 

John, if you are around on Saturday and want to test out the build, you are welcome to use my models.  Just let me know.


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#7 Lord Kalumdi

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 02:49 PM

Thank you everyone for the replies!

Krum - I simply do not have the model is the only reason for not including a phoenix. I considered the Book of Hoeth, but I wanted to use all of my models so I tried to take it easy on character points. Good item though, so I'm probably going to add it.

Arydis - book of Hoeth seems solid, I will consider it! Thanks!

Ghost Warrior - Thanks a lot for the suggestions! You are correct, the only second Mage model I have is mounted :) I will change some command options and either put the bsb on foot or kit him for combat. Probably the star lance combo. I'll switch the ring for a scroll as well. Really good magic advice!

Bob - Thanks for the help. I will consider all of this and revise what I can. I am actually going on vacation starting this weekend so I will not be around. Thank you though, we we will definitely have a game when I return!

#8 Lord Kalumdi

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 11:27 PM

Taking most of the advice into consideration, here is my revised list:

Archmage - level 4, Book of Hoeth, Golden Crown, High Magic

Mage - level 1, Dispel Scroll, barded steed, Lore of Metal

Noble - BSB, barded steed, lance, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone, Other Trickster's Shard

9 Silver Helms- full command, shields, lances, heavy armour, barded steeds

6 Dragon Princes - full command, dragon armour, lances, shields, barded steeds, Drakemaster has Star Lance

5 Reavers - bows, light armour, elven steeds

5 Reavers - bows, light armour, elven steeds

20 spearmen - full command, spears, shields, light armour, Banner of Eternal Flame

20 Phoenix Guard - full command, heavy armour, halberds, Standard of Discipline

23 White Lions - full command, great axes, heavy armour, lion cloaks, Banner of the World Dragon

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - 2 crew with hand weapons

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - 2 crew with hand weapons

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - 2 crew with hand weapons

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - 2 crew with hand weapons

Great Eagle

Gonna have a few play test games and see how it goes. Thank you everyone for your advice!




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