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Chaos Codex First impressions


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#1 Tepogue

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 07:52 PM

I was able to pick up the new Chaos Codex on Saturday. Here's kinda of a random list of firsst impressions

d66 chart is entertaining, everything from Spawndom to turning into a Demon Prince. Really random

Chaos Lords got cheap

OMG, Demon Princes got expensive

New HQ choices are entertaining, I like the ability to degrade terrain and curse vehicles,

Possessed are interesting, only a d3 chart

Hellbrutes ( hate the name) replacing Chaos Dreads are interesting and no longer can shoot your own troops

Cultists - love these guys, cheap, large squads, cheap upgrades.
Downside is the Plague Zombies from Typhus need some FAQ, otherwise they cannot add aditional members or even get the mark of Nurgle

the new
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#2 madival

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 02:12 AM

The 10 plague zombies is probably a balance thing. 35 FnP fearless guard is just so wrong and for 210 points, that just sucks.
patience is an emotion that causes turmoil in the child races who were sleeping in the womb of their infant dieties while we conquered the universe. we are not patient, we are not kind....we wait...

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#3 Tepogue

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 06:37 AM

Got cut off, so let us continue.

RE Plague Zombies. You can get 30 mobs of Orks that are Fearless and can still run. You can make 50 strong IG Squads, add in a Lord Commisar and while not fearless they are stubborn 10. So I feel Plague Zombies should be able to buy more members and either be auto marked by Nurgle or at least have the option to buy the mark of Nurgle, but a FAQ will be required.

Moving on:

Heldrake - initailly I did not care for the model and it's rules, but several epihanys later. This model can affect 2 different units a turn. During movement it can vector strike for d3+1 Str 7 AP 3 hits and still shoot it's main weapon. Of the 2 options the Bale Flamer appears best. Str 6, AP3, Torrent. I'll have to check again, but I think this would let me place the template anywhere with the small end of the flamer template within 12 inches and on any level ofa building. Cinematically you can't argue that a flying Dragon cannot breath fire on the top of a building.

Chaos bikers are cheap now and might see more use.

For Heavy Support. I think my defiler's might get shelved now. Too many options now in this book. The 2 new fiends look good on paper. for 170 points, 8 str 8 36 in range shots from a model with a 5++ save and the option to get back lost hull points looks tempting. BS 3 is ok for 8 shots.

The Maulerfiends though. Ouch. 12 inch movement, ignoring terrain all the time. Armed with dual lashes is -2 to number of attacks models in base get against it. Not many models get more than 3 attacks. This looks like it can laugh off single sgt's with power fists. Heck even 5 TH&SS Terms who charge it only make 5 attacks total.

more later.
http://tepogue.blogspot.com/

We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder,
We danced among the lighting bolts,
And tore the world asunder.

#4 Stormcrow

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 11:50 AM

Thanks for this post. Please continue to update this with interesting thoughts and observations as it helps those of us not interested in the codex nor wanting to pay for the new one some trouble.

#5 Tepogue

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 04:57 PM

OK, while waiting on my wife's Physical Torture err Physical Therapy session, I got 1 1/2 hours of uninterupted reading today.

Gonna focus on HQ choices for this post.

First thing first is Warlord Traits. Chaos gets 1 chart
1 - All friendly models within 12 inches get Preferred Enemy Space Marines ( this is defined as anything from the following codexes: Space Marines, Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights and Space Wolves) *Note it said all friendly models, other places in the codex limit effects to only units chosen from Codex CSM, So this appears to affect allied units as well.
2 - Warlord and unit have Soulblaze melee weapons - Meh
3 - d3 infantry units gain Infiltrate. Hello infiltrating 20 marine Berzerker units, Maulers, etc.
4 - Warlord and his unit have Hatred - Meh, especially if you paid for Vets of the Long War upgrade already.
5 - Warlord has Fear - Meh I never remember Fear since all SPace Marines are immune to it.
6 - Warlord gets to reroll on the Chaos Boon Table - depends on your Warlord - only ones who either buy the before game upgrade to roll on the chart or who will be in Assault and capable of killing enemy characters will ever roll on the chart.

Overall - 3 of the results get the Meh grade and I don't see as useful.
Result 1 if you are fighting Marines will shifts odds in your favor, rerolling 1's on both ranged and melee attacks is useful.
Result 3 - Infiltrate on any infantry unit is useful in all situations
Result 6 - Depending on your army set up and what monster leads your army this should at least prevent you from turning into a spawn.

HQ

Chaos has too many choices now for HQ

7 Special Characters all capable of leading the army. What is interesting is 5 of the characters have fixed Warlord traits, so rather than /random you can choose your character to get a certain results.

Abaddon - Just shoot him, I don't care who you are. You will die in melee. Automatic Result 1 for Warlord Trait

Huron Blackheart - Pretty standard other than he has result 3 fixed, so his armies will always have d3 infiltrators.

Kharn - Nice solid cheapish Beatstick - always hits on 2+ regardless of WS on a 1 hits other friendly models within 6". Kharn and Unit have a 2+ Deny the Witch so good luck using psychics on him. Has Result 4 on warlord

Ahriman - level 4 Psyker - BAM eat it Eldrad. (at least until Codex Eldar comes out) He can use 3 witchfire powers in the same phase unfortunately it doesn't say whether he can use the same spells over and over or has to use 3 different spells.
Warlord Trait 3 - infiltrate

Typhus - Typhus is made for killing stuff. Manreaper will give him 3+d6 attacks (+1 on charge) at Str 6 AP2. Or once per game, At I5 he can use the Destroyer Hive and place a large Blast marker on himself and everyone under the template eats a S4 ap2 hit. Typhus can also turn Cultists into Plague Zombies - think IG stats, with Fearless, FNP, no running, BUT it says they get no options and the ability to add more members to the unit is under Options. . . . So for the moment it's only 10 Zombies in a Squad and nothing says they are marked by Nurgle. warlord Traits - 5 Fear - So Meh, Space marines need not worry.

Lucius - /Yawn, he skills stuff in Assault. In duel his Attacks = opponent's WS - Challenge a Bloodthirster gets him 10 attacks :)

Fabius - Pretty meh, gives 1 basic CSM unit +1 Str and fearless for no extra points, considering you can take CSM up to 20 models this might be interesting for someone.
http://tepogue.blogspot.com/

We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder,
We danced among the lighting bolts,
And tore the world asunder.

#6 Tepogue

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 05:24 PM

The generic HQs

Chaos Lord - cheap now. just under 33 Skaven Slaves base price. The main purpose seems to be if you mark with Khorne, Nurgle or Slannesh unlocks the respective cults troops from Elites to Troops, Plague Marines from Elite to troops for example.

Sorcerer - with mark of Tzeentch unlocks Thousand Sons from elite to Troops. interesting is that they are base level 1 and can buy up to 2 additional levels. Did I mention that each of the 3 magic using gods got there own lore? if not, they well, they did, the downside is you can only get up to 1/2 your powers from your god. . . . . WTF? So even Ahriman the level 4 could only get 2 powers at most from Tzeentch. So not happy about this anyways at 30 Skaven Slaves Base cost. These might be useful

Daemon Prince - first not your old lolDP anymore. Points costs are up. So much that most people will stop using them. EXCEPT for the Black Mace Prince. If your opponent puts one of these on the table. Shoot it. Don't let it touch you. For ~150 Skaven Slaves heres what he can do:
Use Smash to double his Strength to Str 10, AP will drop to 2. per the GW FAQ Smash just halves your A Value, you then add bonus values. So 5 /2 = 3 base attacks (not too scary) the Black Mace is +d6 attacks. if you roll a 1, then no bonus attacks, but 2-6 = that many extra attacks. So worst case. 3+6+1 attacks (he has wings so he can fly 24 inches on turn 1 and assault on turn 2) for 10 str 10 attacks at AP2, if he wounds a multiwound model, they must take a Toughness test or be removed (no save) Also, if the Mace kills anyone, at the end of the combat, all non-vehicle enemy models within 3 inches must take a T test or be removed. ( I call this Pit of the World Wolf - Patent Pending ) So everyone tatoo this - Demon Prince with Black Mace = shoot it.

The last 2 HQ choices are nice new choices with base costs of 52-55 Skaven Slaves they are cheap flavorible choices.

Warpsmith ( AKA anti Techmarine) he can do all the stuff a Techmarine can, repair weapons, restore Hull points. Also he can curse a vehicle within 24 inches with 'Gets Hot" I'm not sure how useful this is, given I always seem to be shot by twin linked weapons, but it since Gets Hot can remove Hull points on your vehicles this might hurt your opponent.
Also he can degrade terrain in his opponent's deployment zones, -1 to cover save. So can counter act a bolster defense or hurt someone's firebase.

Dark Apostle - (AKA Evil Chaplain) Thats pretty much it, has Zealot USR, and models within 6 inches can use his LD for tests. Useful for keeping Cultists under control.

So overall you can pretty much find a HQ choice for any play style. Cheap Basic Chaos Lords/Sorcerors up to Black Mace Demon Princes/Abbadon.
http://tepogue.blogspot.com/

We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder,
We danced among the lighting bolts,
And tore the world asunder.

#7 BoxerSaint

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 08:06 AM

Whats the exchange rate from Skaven Slaves to Searchlights?
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#8 Tepogue

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:09 AM

given that searchlights are free and Slaves are slaves, it's an infinite amount of searchlights to 1 slave.
http://tepogue.blogspot.com/

We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder,
We danced among the lighting bolts,
And tore the world asunder.

#9 Stormcrow

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:39 AM

Thanks for the update, but GK have to pay 1 point for a searchlight.

#10 Tepogue

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 01:42 PM

Thanks for the update, but GK have to pay 1 point for a searchlight.


Ok, figures, I looked at SM, IG, Chaos and all of those get Searchlights for free.

In that case, you get 2 Search lights for 1 Skaven Slave Or Skaven Slaves are 2 points each.

I figure I should take a step back and go over the new Marks of Chaos. These have changed from the previous Codex in some cases.

Marks of Chaos for most models:

Khorne - Model gets Rage and Counter Attack. - Eat this Space Wolves. You have a choice, give the Berzerkers +2 attacks for charging you or only +1 attack if you charge them. Give this mark to a unit of 35 Cultists and suddenly you have a squad putting out Ork horde level of attacks.

Tzeentch - +1 to your ++ save or a 6+ if you don't have one. Mostly useless. Cultists with 6+/6++ saves will find better saves being in area terrain or behind an Aegis. Note Thousand Sons Space Marines have a 5++ which is improved to 4++ by this mark. Tzeentch Marked Terminators also have normal Term 5++ improved to 4++. Tzeentch Characters can buy a 4++ and with mark get 3++. So at most you will only ever see 2 models with 3++ saves in a Chaos Army.

Nurgle +1 T same as before. Mark of Nurgle makes you immune to some Nurgle Psychic powers. I see a Typhus/Epidemus unmarked cultist combo, pretty much capable of maxing the Tally by turn 2 without having to kill any enemy models.

Slannesh - +1 I - I see a lot of complaining on the interwebs about this mark. I just don't think people have looked at this mark seriously. I5 goes before all other basic Space Marines. So you can take a basic CSM squad, replace bolter for CCW for free, Give MoS for 1 Skaven Slave and then add in either Icon of Excess for FNP or Vengeance for Fearless. Base unit cost is 50-52.5 Skaven Slaves for 5 marines, add up to 15 additional Marines for 7.5 Skaven Slaves. You still get to add 1 special weapon (flamer, Melta, plasma) to the base squad and if you hit 10+ then add a second special weapon or a Heavy Weapon.

Cultists with MoS are I4, that lets them go at the same time as Space Marines. with 1 +1 for additional weapon. This is a decent amount of S3 attacks. For 60 Skaven Slaves I can make this Cultist unit:

1 Cult Leader pistol & CCW
19 Cultists Pistol & CCW
2 flamers
MoS +1 I (so I4)

Add in additional Cultists at 2 Skaven Slaves for 1 Cultist up to 35 total models.

One big exception to these Marks is Demon Princes. The Marks on DP are different

All Marked Demon Princes hate the opposing God and vice versa (Khorne VS Tzeentch & Nurgle VS Slaanesh)

Khorne gets Furious Charge
Tzeentch gets to reroll all saving throw results of 1
Nurgle gets Shrouded and Slow and Purposeful
Slaanesh get Fleet and add +3" to run distances (d6+3 for run)
http://tepogue.blogspot.com/

We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder,
We danced among the lighting bolts,
And tore the world asunder.

#11 The Kraken

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:24 PM

Didn't the old rivalries between the gods used to be Khorne vs. Slaanesh and Nurgle vs. Tzeentch?
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#12 Kaptun Krum

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:28 PM

Yeah that's the old rivalries. Either they've changed fluff or a typo.

#13 Tepogue

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:58 AM

Hmm, my bad, Khorne against Slaanesh and Nurgle against Tzeentch. Not sure how I mixed that up.
http://tepogue.blogspot.com/

We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder,
We danced among the lighting bolts,
And tore the world asunder.

#14 Mikey

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 06:30 PM

I've played Chaos a LOT over the years. I got the new codex today and am noticing a few things jumping out. They've kept a lot of the feel from the last book and added more options. I like this. Some other things I really like:

Lord of Tzeentch on a disk now moves as Jetbike, not as Jump. This is impressive.

Demon Princes (while expensive) can be REDICULOUSLY good, possibly OP. Will have to playtest. This is mainly because....

ARTIFACTS!

Yep. All in caps. There are some sick artifacts. I was going to be upset by losing the ability to pick the psychic power that I want for my DP's, but when I saw Artifacts I was like, "Meh. Who needs Psychic powers?"

Some of these things are rediculous. Starting w/ the Black Mace.

S - AP 4, Always wounds on a 2+, +d6 attacks, (And w/ new rules when you roll a 1 you take a wound that you can Invul against, and still attack, albeit at WS 1 which is tons better than NOT attacking at all). Cursed. CURSED? Yep. If an enemy takes an unsaved wound they immediately take a Toughness test with no saves of any kind allowed or are removed. In addition, at the end of combat, if ANY models were wounded, ALL enemy models within 3" make a Toughness test or are removed w/ NO SAVES OF ANY KIND. So. I'm thinking, My DP flies in, assaults close to your HQ, but not into him. Don't issue a challenge, and hope they don't either, swing on a bunch of regular troops, and watch the Toughness saves rack up. I think this has some abuse potential. Especially if you have another Character who can accept the challenge and let your DP maul troopers.

Next is the Dimensional Key. Give this bad boy to your DP and as soon as he kills a model, which is pretty easy, then all terrain within 12" of him is considered both difficult AND dangerous for the duration, but more importantly ALL your friendly (Hilarious wording for this Codex) models that Deep Strike DO NOT SCATTER. Combine this with the Warp Talons which Deep STrike and BLIND all units within 12" of them when the enter play and you've got some pretty dirty pool going on.

Things I'm not fond of at a glance are the Melee Oblits, the Chaos Terminators (They really needed some Umph) and Demonic Posession change. Yeah, when embarking now on a roll of a 1 the vehicle randomly EATS a member of the squad. Cray Cray.

Mikey

PS- Sorry been AWOL. Got accepted to a program that is paying me to go back to college. Heheh. What's one more degree on Uncle Sam's buck? Meh
I've decided...Make a vanilla Space Marine army w/ lots of options. That way you can play them "Counts as" pretty much any SM army. Heck, I'm waiting on someone to play SM's with "Stolen" Tau or Necron tech. LOL

#15 Mikey

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 06:32 PM

OH yeah. Didn't see if you listed it, but yes, the Havocs can now fire anti aircraft missiles, but it doesn't come w/ a missile launcher. You have to buy that ability in addition. So it's 15pts for a missile launcher and an additional 10 if you want it able to shoot down flyers.

Mikey
I've decided...Make a vanilla Space Marine army w/ lots of options. That way you can play them "Counts as" pretty much any SM army. Heck, I'm waiting on someone to play SM's with "Stolen" Tau or Necron tech. LOL

#16 Tepogue

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 11:56 PM

Mikay the teleport homer function of the KeY is mostly worthless. If requires you to kill someone in assault. So turn 1 you cannot even assault if you take the first turn (one of the dumbest rules of this edition) So start of turn 2 you roll for reserves and 2/3 of your reserves come in. During Turn 2's assault phase you will then unlock the Key. So only wahtever units are left over at the start of your turn 3 would even have a chance to use the key. BUT you can really annoy your opponent with the difficult/dangerous 12 inch radius effect.
http://tepogue.blogspot.com/

We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder,
We danced among the lighting bolts,
And tore the world asunder.

#17 Mikey

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:38 AM

I hadn't thought about the limited times the TP homer would be in effect, which you are absolutely correct about. BUT, the Difficult/Dangerous terrain bit is pretty damn awesome. Get near Jump troops or bikes, watch and wait for the 1's to really roll out. :)

Mikey
I've decided...Make a vanilla Space Marine army w/ lots of options. That way you can play them "Counts as" pretty much any SM army. Heck, I'm waiting on someone to play SM's with "Stolen" Tau or Necron tech. LOL

#18 Grizzly Adams

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 12:47 PM

After playing a couple games with the new dex, a couple things have jumped out at me, overall I like it, one thing that has jumped out at me is the lack o ways to get troops across the board. I feel that I am am going to be running a lot of fellas on foot, as other than a rhino or land raider, you don't really have a whole lot of options.

I am really liking my forgefiends, they can dump quite a bit of firepower. I think I am going to go the route of larger troop squads too, and with this book, you can do that quite cheaply. Lords come in pretty cheap, especially when you are used to 225+pt wolf lords.

Cultists are a steal, an are a great way to add cost effective troops in your list, I don't foresee myself building a list without them.

I haven't really looked at warp talons or raptors that much, but I think that I am going to start, as having some deep strikers can really help the speed of this army, possibly a winged dp as well.

I wish you could take all your powers out of the dex instead of only half, as there are some pretty slick psychic powers, but that's not such a bad thing.

It's a good book, a lot better than what we had, but I think it is going to take a lot of trial and error to figure it all out

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#19 Tepogue

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 11:40 PM

Grizz - Look at the Chaos Bikers they are much lower in price and still retain Bolt Pistol and CCW. A 12 inch normal move and 12 inch Turbo Boost on turn 1, pretty much gurantees they can be in Assault on Turn 2. T6 Nurgle marked marines kinda laugh at Bolters and Khorne with 4 Attack + Hammer strikes make a mess of most things.

I have a loathing of Assault Marines/Raptors, so I have no experience with them, but they are cheaper now.

I'm still thinking people are forgetting to move their Rhinos again in the Shooting phase. Or the new method of Rhino Boost. Which is have troops embarked on turn 1. First turn Move RHino 6, Disembark Berzerkers 6 inches. RUn Berzerkers d6 in shooting phase, while Flat out with the Rhino for a slight chance at covering the zerkers. At the end of turn 1, you've gotten the Zerkers 12+d6 out of your deployment zone. And with 6 inch movment in turn 2 plus 2d6 for assault You should be able to get to your opponents front line troops.

I wish Chaos had been given their Dreadclaws, but meh we didn't.

Until we see if the Terminator Nerf gets undone, I think the designers expect Chaos to go shooty with it's main list and ally in demons for assault.
http://tepogue.blogspot.com/

We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder,
We danced among the lighting bolts,
And tore the world asunder.




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